Here is Senthil's actual post - http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/conversion-destroys-religious-harmony-by-swami-dayananda-saraswathi
Realized that my comment was as good as a post, hence posting it here.
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Much as I disagree with Priya Raju's stance on Hinduism/Brahminism, it must be said that she raises *some* valid points.
Also, even though most of her comments/writings seem fiercely (exclusively) anti-Hindu, I would like to think what she is doing is pointing out our recently-evolved-fallacies to those of us who claim the Sainthood and blemishlessness of Hinduism. I think and hope she would do the same to other religions too, irrespective of whether they (I refer primarily to the Abrahamic ones) claim purity/innocence/blemishlessness because it is obvious that of all the major religions, Hinduism (the "religion" that has sadly come to represent the gloriously more meaningful way of life that Sanatana Dharma is) is easily the least anti-other-religions (if it is, at all).
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Anyhow, coming to conversions - all the while, a lot of us here have been looking at the evil that conversion is, from the converter's point of view and have been using the "it is evil to convert another for money...if you help the needy, help them unconditionally, without any prerequisites" refrain. Priya seems to have been looking at the other side - from the converted person's point of view, and I don't really see anyone having addressed that concern effectively. If you are in absolute dire need, with no means for survival, what would you do if someone offered a helping hand with a "minor" catch - changing your religion? (I specifically address this wrt to conversion from Hinduism-->Other religions because I am unaware of cases where poor people originally from other religions have been converted to Hinduism for money {Yes, we Hindus are 'poor' people today :D}). Why I say 'minor' is because of how few of us actually understand Hinduism today. Life is much simpler today, you can lead a perfectly comfortable life without associating any aspect of religion to it (it is a different matter that it is highly unlikely that your quest for inner peace will be satisfied by not following/understanding/knowing about Sanatana Dharma or something like it {if there is something else as insightful...}). And the concept of "inner peace" is something people don't really know about, as well, so few care for it.
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Another issue is this - since we know this is Kali Yuga, we should know that bad actions have a higher probability of being a sure event, compared to good ones. In today's world, money is the end-all for most. And to acquire money, people are ready to do most things unthinkable in earlier times. Also, we need to realize that in today's world, money is mostly given by the rich to the poor to do 'bad' things, compared to for doing 'good' things. How many people today would give money to someone to be truthful or honest? Who would give money to a drunkard to stop drinking? I had, after seeing many Indian movies based on corruption as a child, (in the hypothetical situation that I become one of "those" rich people :D) often thought of giving money to officials to 'not accept' bribes, then realized, much to my chagrin, that my action would, again, in a sense, be bribing (to prevent bribing :P). Effectively, conversion for money is, as someone already said, quite analogous to prostitution. Yes, there is one difference in that conversion for inner-peace is possible, but I'm not sure if there are people indulging in prostitution for inner peace or seeking "higher" meaning in life. Then again, an informed person in the right circumstances would realize that you don't need to convert to follow meaningful practises (whichever religion it may be).
What I humbly feel is - most of today's Hindus dont really feel much about their religion in an informed sense (they are either Hindus just because they were born as one {easier prey for conversion} or the Ram Sene types, who are crazy about it because they just happen to believe in it {without correctly knowing why} and who want to be proud of their religion because there are others who are proud of theirs). The few truly informed Hindus are either blissfully involved in service to mankind (not Hindus alone) or serve as guiding light to a few genuinely interested seekers, often unfortunately having to share the "Guru"/"Swami" status with more dubious characters. The easy prey that are born Hindus are -
1) Spineless & gutless, and since they obviously dont belong to the informed category of Hindus, they have no reason to stick around when offered a better alternative. Again, it's Kali Yuga, and a majority of mankind (and quite a few Hindus) belong to this category - do anything it takes for money. And if they are not spineless or gutless
2) they sadly fall under the category of "poor". Unless the "poor" happens to be an intellectual Mahatma (meaning Great soul, not MK Gandhi) wrt Hinduism, there is no reason why he/she shouldn't take the money and convert, because it is a question of survival - after all, this is Bhuloka and in Kali Yuga, doesn't life take precedence over Dharma? And we really can't blame the poor for converting under distress with the lure of money.
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IMHO, if at all we intend to stop conversion, we need to try doing something like the good work Swami Lakshmanananda did, in uplifting the tribal people in Orissa (I specifically mention good because I don't want to get into any argument with the [pseudo] secular types on any -ve accusations they might have against the Swamiji, like inciting communal violence, etc). Asking the evangelists to stop, I feel, is not going to be of much use because -
a. They are unreasonable people. Period. Their single-minded agenda is conversion, they will not stop at anything else. Asking them to stop is like asking the customers of prostitutes to stop having sexual feelings. It's not going to happen. Or you should have more power/money than them and force them to stop their conversion or convert them. (Joke :P)
b. We won't be addressing the root cause. As true Hindus, it is our duty to uplift the downtrodden and give them a chance in society. Whether the caste system was good or bad, I will not get into that argument now. We know for sure that the system is not going to work now. Besides, there is too much divisiveness & discrimination associated with it (wrongly). The only way to get out is making the "lesser castes" not feel lesser. And if there is financial trouble, help them eke out a living, don't give them money.
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Wrt Brahmins being strong-minded enough not to fall prey to conversion, again, IMHO, I think that's sadly not the case. Yes, the %age of Brahmin converts may be less, but that is more due to their smart-ass'ness (courtesy history) than strong-mindedness. The Brahmin of my generation (I am 24) is no more knowledgeable than the "supposedly" less knowledgeable Shudra of ancient times. Most of today's Brahmins are fit for nothing more than being software engineers who code, guzzle down beer and see what's the best price to buy a flat in Malleshwaram/ECR or whether Bay Area is better than New Jersey to settle down. And among all the atheists/agnostics of all religions in the world, it's the Brahmins (Tam-Brahms, esp.) who question and mock at their own practices most. This is another thing I noticed - while atheists of other religions don't restrict their criticism to their former religion alone, most "Hindu" atheists somehow seem to have their scorn, sarcasm and criticism exclusively reserved for Hinduism alone. Beats me why.
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To answer another question, though I disagree with a lot of ISKCON's teachings & practices, ISKCON conversions are at least more dignified than Evangelism in that they don't take advantage of someone's suffering. Their "conversion" (for want of a better word) addresses the mind rather than the financial status of a person, which is, IMHO, definitely more honourable.
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I have made quite a few generalizations (not sweeping) in what I've written above. There are, as always exceptions, but most of what I've written is from what I've observed around me.
Apologies if I have said anything wrong or offended anyone, absolutely no intentions to do so. Just interested in constructive conversations to correctly understand, preserve and enhance Sanatana Dharma. :)
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He he, apdi illa da. Usual'a I am quite impulsive and when it comes to issues close to my heart esp., I shoot my mouth off even before I realize I've said something, and though I dont intend to offend, my hot-headed reaction is often quite caustic (even though there wont be a single abuse :P), which I've been consciously trying to reduce. This comment of mine was written when I was somewhat coherent, calm and collected. Hence, even though I might've said some controversial opinions, I think I've put them across in an agreeable manner, in the same vein, I was conscious enough to remember that there will always be the touch-me-not's who will be offended at the drop of a hat, so taking them also into consideration. :D
Good thoughts.. Nice to see a response to my post after long time..
Regarding priya's comment, i can only attribute to two faces of the christianity..
One is the ever loving image of the nuns and priests, heavily supported by 24/7 PR campaign..
And this is the face, that is ever popular among the common people.. More over, the english language media, both indian and abroad..
As for priya, she seem to have studied in a christian school, and may have positive opinion on them..
On the issue of converting for money, probably we can empathise with the poor people.. but how can we justify the act of the missionaries..
After all, india became poor, because of british colonialism, and it is the missionaries who supported british colonialism and got suitable rewards from them..
Will you allow, if pakistan gives money for poor people?
As
Like you rightly say, the PR campaign is one of the most potent reasons for Christianity thriving today. Esp the amount of venom they spew on Hindu religion and Hindu Gods, it makes me retch in anger. I feel especially aggrieved when I see noble Christians around me who preach the religion with so much conviction that makes me wonder if they have ever even thought about how they, being Indians by descent, became Christians in the first place. Makes me sad. :(
Wrt conversion for money, again, this act is downright cheap and cannot be justified in any even partially-correct school of logic. But wrt Pakistan giving money to poor people, if they indeed do something like that without any expectations/requirements, with the sole purpose of enhancing the lives of the poor & needy, I would happily appreciate it. It is, of course, unimaginable that this failed state would even contemplate doing such a thing, least of all, to Indians in India.
Also, as an aside, just a polite suggestion - now that you brought up the issue of Priya's *likely* Christian-school background, I'd like to tell/request/suggest you to refrain from going too deep into someone's personal background and stating that in public. I also saw you had asked her something abt her family helping out some relatives who converted or something like that. Though I am able to understand your concerns and can, without any hesitation, say that your words are well-intended, you must realize that people dont take too kindly to being asked highly personal questions in public. I felt bad when she responded so rudely at you, though one cannot really blame her for her anger. You seem to be a great guy, but because of a few well-intended, but wrongly-communicated words here and there, there is a high degree of misinterpretation of you possible in public. Please dont mistake me thinking - "Ivan yaaru da oorukku upadesam panna vandhuttaan" or something like that, I know I have a few drawbacks/failings myself, but unless like-minded people like us can correct one another, we will not be able to project the correct image of what we stand for. The world is such a sad place today that people will always tend to pick out your minute aberrations and blow them up as life-sized portraits of you and paint your character black because of a spot.
All in good intentions. :)
Kaushik
as per christians, they are saving souls. they do not look upon monetary incentives as bribes, they look upon them as minor incentives offered to less-enlightened souls so that they may reach, in the words of a local evangelist 'the kingdom of heaven'. theyre not bribing people to raise an army to fight a war, it is a part of their faith.
and you have to admit, they do not simply promise, they follow up. they build schools and hospitals and construct roads and wells which are in most cases usable even by non-christians in the village.
there are missionaries in almost every district in india with such programs, however small. apart from traditionally belittle and subjugate lower castes, what have most brahmins done for their brothers? (not accounting for a few exceptions)
i respect your opinion, but i do not think it is either fair or justified to be this harsh in your criticisms.
the above are simply some views i hold.
You are right that i should not have dealt on personal aspect of priya's. I am wrong when i mentioned about her family and their christian relative. Learned not to repeat that there after and i had kept that so far.
Regarding priya's schooling, i think she had herself mentioned this, and i just expressed her schooling as a possible reason for her positive image on christianity.. i think there is no offence here..
Regarding your following comment
/** But wrt Pakistan giving money to poor people, if they indeed do something like that without any expectations/requirements, with the sole purpose of enhancing the lives of the poor & needy, I would happily appreciate it.
**/
Please think practically.. will they ever help without any expectations.. If they are helping any indians, it means, they have a hidden agenda.. we often become idealistic.. like that idiot Nehru..
/** as per christians, they are saving souls. they do not look upon monetary incentives as bribes, they look upon them as minor incentives offered to less-enlightened souls so that they may reach, in the words of a local evangelist 'the kingdom of heaven'.
**/
Please read your comment again.. what do you (or they) mean by less-enlightened souls? This is the crux of the problem, and the root of racism.. that they consider non-christians as less-enligthened, and what that indicates.. that non-christians are inferior to them..
They have the right to have any opinion or belief.. but when that belief affects us, we have to right to fight back..
Do you accept, that you are less-englightened soul? But according to them, you are..
Please dont fall to such subverting arguments..
**/
the value of every action is measured in the intent in which it is done..
A loafer can buy scooters or any other utilities for a poor girl.. does that mean he is doing good? We know, that its intended to seduce her and no sane mind will accept this..
Btw, for your correction, the christian missionaries are NOT building any roads.. they invest in hospitals, schools, mainly to build an asset for their core ambition.. that is to convert others..
Do you know, that Sathyabama college acts as a central office for all missionaries in the surrounding area?
And do you want everyone to be converted to christianity, because they build shools?
And from whose money had they built all these? From the money the britishers looted from india..
Logically all those institutions should have been nationalised, for two reasons..
1. they are built with our own money..
2. The missionaries were the backbone of the colonial britishers, and hence co-conspirator in subjugating and looting india..
**/
This is yet another subversion of arguments.. there is no greater evil than to abuse our parents, and the same applies when we abuse our own community in which we are part of..
Just apply a bit of common logic.. What did the brahmins had, to serve the society? Historically, the brahmins are prohibited from earning, from selling, from trading, and from running businesses. These are sins for them.. Their main job is to profess their religion and live a simple life and they were supported by the kings..
After british took over, even the kings and native rulers became poor.. and when these patrons lost their power, the brahmins went in to utter poverty unable to even fend for themselves..
The fact that you are speaking today, is because of the fact that your forefather, were forced to leave their dharma, and undertake other professions..
Please dont do unmindful criticisms.. please think practically..
I am not a brahmin.. but when i read about the history and the role of brahmins, i dont mind their other nominal shortcomings like their strict aacharams etc..
Before spitting venom on brahmins, consider the status of the temple priests, who are also brahmins..
Do you know their monthly salary fixed by government? Its just 500 rs.
And if you want to compare christian missionaries with brahmins, please google "Goa Inquisition" and you will find many of the historic truths, where brahmins were brutalised by the cathlic church in Goa, during 16th century..
Whoa! Someone dropped by on this post, of all, after so long! Ha, I guess you came here through Chutney's post. In any case, thanks for your comment Spaz! :-)
I beg to disagree with you on the "good" done by Xtian missionaries, which, IMHO, is classic pseudo stuff. I have seen too much of native culture/civilization being destroyed in the name of evangelization - "enlightening" less-enlightened souls (as you say) is one thing, but carrying it out like a professional corporation is another, that too, when the natives are taught to hate their roots. It is never truly "good" when there is an element of hate involved. It is a fact that most proselytizers (there are always exceptions, like you say) include this lesson of hate (of Hinduism/native beliefs) as part of their proselytization. No one is denying the schools/hospitals they built, but at what cost? And even if, as you say, they massively continue amassing people in the name of Christianity, not for war, the only I difference I see with the terrorist-version of Islam is the degree of violence. And we can be sure that any religion that strongly denounces/propagates hate amongst non-followers or followers of other faiths is a problem.
Wrt the injustices meted out by us Brahmins in the past, I've explicitly mentioned that, so no issues there (though I must say I've recently come across a few pieces which suggest the whole discimination bit was brought about by the British, but I'm not sure, hence I digress. In any case, it is definitely true we've, rather our ancestors, at least most of them, have been too high-handed and contemptuous).
Also, I notice that while my article was intended to be read more in light of the plight of the converted, your comment seems to focus on my "harsh criticism" of evangelists, which, though relevant & true, is just one specific point I mentioned, among others. If my post had criticism of evangelists as the central theme & covered 75% of the space, then your comment is very justified, but then, the post itself would simply become a pointless, negative rant, compared to a slightly more self-critical & constructive piece, which is how I hoped this post would come across as.
Good to have you back senthil, haven't seen you update your blog for quite some time now. I think you were addressing me, not Arvind.
Wrt the Pakistan comment, I was just considering a very extreme case to drive home my point. It's obvious that the failed state is not in a position to help itself, where is the question of helping someone else, least of all, India?
Btw, Senthil, are you in twitter? There are a lot of interesting discussions going on, you must join.
Thanks for your response to Spaz Kumari, as always, interesting points. :-)
Spaz Kumari
Spaz, like Senthil says, the very fact that Christians consider non-Christians "less enlightened" is a very disturbing fact. It's the same as Muslims who consider all non-believers to be Kafirs. This belief is bad enough, but as long as they keep it to themselves, it at least doesn't cause major harm, but when they use this as the primary reason to indulge in externally good activities, it really is asking for trouble. Besides, what Islamic terrorism we see today, is but another manifestation of the Crusades.
Also, I am not sure if you know how they treat non-Christians in missionary schools/hospitals. Excellent treatment is reserved exclusively to Christians and converts. Hindus who refuse to convert are often ill-treated. I can show you instances, but they will, in no way, make a conclusive argument since they might as well come across as exceptions to you.
In any case, it's time we Brahmins stopped feeling bad & whining about the few misdeeds that our ancestors did these last few centuries in this millennium and start correcting them. I am sure Brahmins of yore were too learned to indulge in humiliative discrimination of the so-called lower castes, which apparently is our numero uno crime. A few centuries of tarnished reputation shouldn't be good enough to wipe out millennia of good work our forefathers have done in passing invaluable texts and scientific/philosophical/spiritual discoveries for the benefit of mankind.
And I hope you haven't taken offence to anything Senthil or I have said. We were just trying to ensure that you knew a few more facts to realize how deep in muck we Hindus are, in our own country. Classic example - AP.
And btw, thanks again for your comment, sorry for the mega-essays. :D
/** I am sure Brahmins of yore were too learned to indulge in humiliative discrimination of the so-called lower castes, which apparently is our numero uno crime.
**/
As you said, its an apparent and accused crime..
Just to give a basic overview, the documented history of india is available mostly through european travellers, which now available in the archivals of the respective countries.. The extensive documentation available in british museum, the reason which is obvious..
Next to that, the portugese travellers had documented extensively on vijayanagara empire, where they traded heavily.. Infact, the portugese economy is said to have raised and fallen with vijayanagara empire..
Going by that, we can say, we have documented proof only from 16th century.. Before that, we dont have any documented history or proof.. we have only literatures of hinduism, right from manu smriti to bagavatam, to vedas etc.
But, see how those indians self denigrate.. when they mention about caste system, immediately they attribute it to 1000's of years, and some times, to 5000 years.. these are purely out of speculation..
Now coming to so called brahminist crime.. that they suppressed lower caste people for ever..
Today we have 1000's of castes, and who are the exact lower castes of those days, who suffered brahminical discrimination till now?
One request to the brahmins.. Please come out of the guilt feeling, because, even the worst of crimes the brahmins had done is thousand times better than the least of the crimes done by the barbaric europeans.. Please think of the genocide of the red indians, or the genocide of the australian aborigines, or the extermination of the inca civilization..
Think about the slavery, and systematic persecution of the european paganism by christian missionaries..
Think about the holocoust of Jews which was done by Hitler, and supported by catholic pope..
It is these barbaric persons who are accusing us, and should we push ourselves in to endless guilty, just because of them?
They are doing it to conceal their own dirty history, so that when we lock ourselves in guilt, we may not focus on their history..
So, brush aside all hesitations and embrace the caste system.. because it is the extended family of any person.. all the caste members are related by blood and hence no need to feel ashamed of either telling our caste or practicing it..
Firstly, I hope u do understand that brahmins were not the only people to indulge in caste-discrimination. The most grotesque forms of discrimination that we see in villages today are being perpetrated by Upper OBCS on lower OBCs and dalits. Brahmins have been chased out of villages long ago and it will only be a matter of time before they are chased out of the country as well. I can only hope that atleast then people will stop fighting the illusionary enemy called Brahmin dominance.
With respect to Christian Conversions, what the missionaries are doing is called DEMOGRAPHIC WARFARE against the state of India. Make no mistake about it,
Western Christians = secular
Indian christians = very far from secular
My ancestors hail from Kanyakumari district and witnessed the "Kanni Mary" agitations first hand. If you dont know about it, christians in Kanyakumari were waging a violent struggle to rename Kanyakumari as "Kanni Mary". This preposterous aim was thwarted by the people pseudos and politically correct people like to hate - the hindu right.
Simple logic if us dollar and other foreign currencies is equivalent to indian rs can they take up so much of welfare activities,foreigners donate money for conversions and they are spending so much as an investment so that they can reap the souls, they want to show their numbers and declare all the world follow their creed only. with regards to fellow hindus helping each other we have it in each and every section of the society, every family helps its extended relatives who are in distress and every caste group help their people however bellitengly small.
xtians wanted to introduce their way of thinking and their culture so only opened so many schools and introduced their own education systems.
w.r.t bramhins not helping their brethern it has been always the other way around their work was to preserve the vedic learning and all other groups used to help them in pursuing this knowledge. this knowledge was not for their own material improvement (like the way we do our degress now) it was for the preservance of vedas and the collective welfare this world achieves by chanting and following it.each and every community took part in preserving this and had their own charity work done in the form of temples, lakes,ponds, inns etc.
christians believe that non-christians will not go to heaven; in that sense the non-christians are inferior. the only point i wanted to make is that they are being evangelical 'in good faith', as we say in law, i.e. 'with the best intentions' :) This attitude that others are inferior may or may not be incorrect, i am neither erudite nor wise enough to comment on the correctness of christian theology and philosophy. However, if you are going to comment on the fundamental premise itself, i.e. the correctness of the others-are-inferior assumption, then you go into the field of comparative theology, which as i have said, i cannot comment on.
Further, w.r.t this idea of 'racism'; do not indian christian converts also preach evangelism? they are as 'black' as the rest of us. it's not a 'racial' inferiority they allege, but a theological one.
Next, w.r.t my comment and your response on schools and hospitals. Be howsoever evil their intentions, the fact is that hospitals, colleges and schools are funded by these missionaries, and they NEVER turn patients away on the basis of religion. in a country like ours, every additional hospital/school helps. I myself went to 3 separate schools run by jesuit priests, scottish presbyterians and catholics respectively. Not once was i expected to pray or attend chapel or show overt respect to jesus christ where i did not wish to. It is their faith to 'bring enlightenment' in this way and they are trying to do so. i see no wrong in this, as long as there is no violence or coercion of any sort involved; everyone has the right to persuasion in this country. as regards whose money they built it with, who cares? do you think the government, if it had that money, would have utilised it in a better fashion? more likely it would be in some administrative officer's pocket.
w.r.t my argument that brahmins have done nothing for their lower-caste brothers. During the pre-caste system times, only the varna system existed where there was no discrimination between 'varnas' and your varna was based upon your occupation, and was not a taint by birth. I completely agree, in such utopian times, the duties of brahmins were strictly limited. However, the varna system died out and the caste system came up, largely, i agree again, due to the efforts of the british. it is their lasting legacy to us. however, you will agree that times have changed. the caste system is NOT intrinsic to hinduism, the varna system was, but the varna system is dead. If brahmins were traditionally so learned and wise and innocent, then they should have refrained from commission of atrocities in the name of caste. But they did not. Further, when times change, roles change. Brahmins had, by virtue of their position, access to the best education and the best resources of all indians, at that time. They had, if nothing else, a moral obligation to teach or take care of their hindu brothers who had no access to any means of empowerment. But largely, again, they did nothing.
My forefathers may have suffered at the hands of the British, but SCs/OBCs have suffered at the hands of both brahmins and the british, as well as other castes superior to OBCs. What about that?
I'm well aware of the atrocities committed during Inquisitions, both the Goa ones and Spanish ones. All i was saying is that the facilities are PRESENTLY available in 1000s of villages by missionaries, are not grudged to non-christians. And we should be thankful for these efforts, as long as no coercive techniques are involved.
I completely agree that brhamins are not the only ones who have committed crimes against other castes. Inter-caste crimes between lower castes have become equally pervasive, as Tejas points out and as Right Angle says, often the historical role of brahmins in committing such cruelty has been greatly exaggerated by the british.
but what use is it to point out the flaws of the accuser, when the accusation contains even a grain of truth? Even if the role of brhamins was much lesser than portrayed, brahmins have cause to be guilty, because in spite of our co-called enlightened position, we caused unnecessary suffering. in fact, our 'wisdom' puts a greater responsibility on us to have avoided such discriminatory practises. pointing out that others too have committed crimes against us, does NOT excuse our own liability for our own acts.
@ramakumaran -
"every family helps its extended relatives who are in distress and every caste group help their people however bellitengly small."
Even if you excuse the frighteningly parochial nature of the above statement, what happens when one community is not in a position to help itself because it has been traditionally denied education, jobs and respect? What then?
saying non grudged to non chrisitians is another facemask to hide themselves, when u find they cant convert by force they indulge in all these niceties ,they follow the shakespeares words look like the innocent flower but b the serpent under it. their main aim is conversion & will try to achieve in whatever means they could, watever they do it wil look nice for some ppl, same like karunanidhi whose main aim is to retain power & he distributes freebies like tv so that ppl vote for him always , same logic they follow like coercion. They are like a businessman who is trying to selling his product giving freebies , and a businessman obviously offers freebies to all of his targeted customers and not only to his existing customers.i know personally a neighbor of mine who is uppercaste and his family has personal problems and one guy came and told to start believe in jesus and all his problems will b solved, this is how they convert. taking opportunities out of ones weakness and trying to convert them is a shameful act.
ppl were not denied jobs this issue of jobs came only when ppl started taking up western office models and jobs and uppercaste left their duties and started getting constant paying jobs , b4 that everybody had their duties assigned and they were needed to do it
If i wish to thank people i would thank all my forefathers who stood by their religion even in the face of invading forces and protected their dharma not to these foreign funded, opportunistic,sly missionaries
"brahmins have cause to be guilty, because in spite of our co-called enlightened position, we caused unnecessary suffering"
If this is true, I believe every alternate German teenager should be ashamed for life - for what their grandfathers did during the Holocaust in Nazi Germany. Every second US white should be ashamed for life about what their ancestors did to the blacks.
I believe that there is no need for the youth of today to harbor a sense of guilt about what their ancestors did. Understanding and acknowledging the mistake is good enough.
"Brahmins had, by virtue of their position, access to the best education...moral obligation to take care of their hindu brothers"
Hmmm good point, but I have to humbly point out that you have not commented on the Kshatriyas or the Vaishyas.
Have the Kshatriyas at any point of time made a conscious attempt to share their political power ? Have the Vaishyas taken a single step towards sharing their monetary gains with their less fortunate brothers ?
In this respect I believe your guilt is misplaced and you accusation - shallow.
The only reason I attribute a higher degree of culpability to the brahmins is because the system was their brainchild.
1. Saying only comparative theologists & philosophers have the right to comment on issues of "your-faith-is-false" or "you-are-inferior-so-you-will-not-go-to-heaven" is like that Facebook colour-campaign to raise awareness on Breast Cancer, definitely related, but quite not good enough to 'E'ffect the outcome. :D
2. Senthil, if I understood rightly, used racism as an analogy to convey the point of superiority. Just like how it is wrong to consider someone inferior because of their colour, it is equally (if not more) wrong to consider someone inferior based on their faith/religion. Nobody can deny this. No one needs to be a theologist or philosopher to understand this simple logic.
3. By using "NEVER", you are shooting your mouth off spectacularly. There is overwhelming proof that this has happened and continues to happen in remote villages in India, specifically TN/AP.
4. "regards whose money they built it with, who cares?" - Scary statement that. Your words seem to imply you are willing to comply with anything someone asks you to do as long as you get education/health (or something on those lines that you need) from them. I am not saying this is right/wrong, but this is not the opinion I have (and if I'm right, some of the other commenters too).
5. "they should have refrained from commission of atrocities in the name of caste." While nobody here claims the sainthood/blamelessness of Brahmins, you are using ridiculously strong words to push your point.
Again, the thought that Brahmins, "by virtue of their position", could've done wonders to uplift the downtrodden, appears nice & cozy, but by saying this, we enter a world of extreme speculation. Vested interests have ensured that we know only of the "atrocities" they are supposed to have committed (which chiefly includes preventing lower castes from entering their houses, temples, education, intellectual jobs, etc.) and NOT the prevailing conditions which might/mightn't have prevented them from doing what we now say they could have.
Brahmin-bashing history also tends to overstate the relevance/importance of Brahmins in post-Kingdom colonial India. The power that ancient Brahmins wielded in society was chiefly due to the respect Rajas accorded to them. Not saying they were shunted away in British times, but this notion of "they should've/could've done this/that" is highly presumptuous from the point of view of the power they had.
Tejas,
To say the "system" was Brahmins' brainchild is again a grotesquely scary statement reeking of more presumptuousness. That Brahmins played no small part in the establishment/sustenance of the system is well-known, but to say it was their brainchild is really in direct contradiction with most of your arguments. This statement of yours reminded me of Anand's comment in my Pseudo-Brahmin Syndrome post. :P
I also just noticed that you stated the point about Brahmins in your first comment out of the blue, as a sort of comparison with missionaries. Though I agree with most of what you said about the subjugation of lower castes and also hope/wish they had done much more for upliftment of the downtrodden, there is really no way we can draw a parallel b/w them and missionaries - almost like apples and knives. I really don't think I ever raised the point abt Brahmins & discrimination in my post - the only place where I touched upon Brahmins is how they too have been victims of proselytization which is quite far away from the way you brought them into the picture. Hence, I really think Brahmins & their "atrocities" is really not a relevant issue here, though I don't mind discussing it, since it would def. help me add perspective/learn more.
The Varna system is different from the caste system..right ?
In ancient India , various dynasties like the Nandas, Guptas etc were not Kshatriyas. In fact, I think even Chandragupta Maurya was not born a Kshatriya.
Somewhere along the way, this became hereditary. Here is an article that tries to explore why.
http://india_resource.tripod.com/social.htm
Please read your comment once more, if it gives any justice to the common sense..
let me quote an analogy to show how your logic appears.. (i have already quoted this in my previous comment)
A rabid womaniser finds a poor (but beautiful) girl, and he tries to step in in the form of helping, by exploiting the girl's poverty. The girl unfortunately doesnt know he is a womeniser. And as an observer, we know he is..
As per your logic, we should not prevent the girl from getting the help from him, and subject herself unaware to all his tricks and seductions, and she should be thankful to that guy (probably in the way he wants)..
WIll you ever allow this to any girl?
If you say yes, then i have nothing further to argue with..
If you say no, then there are lot to discuss..
Expecting your reply on this..
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You mentioned about pre-caste system.. can you give time period of pre-caste system era?
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Can you please list out, what are the atrocities that brahmins had done on other castes.. Since you explicitly state brahmins, please specify the name of the other castes that were the victim..
Let's have a detailed discussion..
/** "Brahmins had, by virtue of their position, access to the best education...moral obligation to take care of their hindu brothers"
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What is the percentage of brahmins who had best education.. and what do you mean by best education.. are you mentioning about english education which brahmins were first adaptors?
Secondly, for doing the help of the sort you are demanding education alone is not sufficient.. Education only gives knowledge and not money or other resources.
You are also educated well and especially an iyengar,.. why cant you uplift all the poors in india? what would you do for that?
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Does running schools and hospitals wash away all sins?
Do you feel that its only christians who are running schools? Are there no brahmins running educational institutions and hospitals in india?
Are there no other caste hindus running hospitals in india?
Your whitewashing of christian missionaries crimes is itself a crime perse.. The catholic pope had apologised for jewish holocaust which they participated.. but did any pope apologised for Goa Inquisition?
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Persuasion itself is a form of mental violence.. are you advocating it? Why should you persuade others?
Its like saying everyone has the right to seduce any one..
Dont people have the right to live without any disturbance?
/** as regards whose money they built it with, who cares?
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So i can loot spaz kumari's wealth, and then offer her what she needs.. who cares? What a logic sirji.. :)
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